TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT BOXERS IN HISTORY

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 weeks ago

You must have forgot that George Foreman went the distance with Holyfield when he was over 47. Beleive it or not age slows you down. Holyfield also beat Tyson, and Tyson avoided him for years (and Foreman). I did not know Holmes had the second most title defenses, so that moves him up my personal list, but he is not in my top ten. You really should consider moving up Jack Johnson a spot or two, there is a youtube of him getting head butted several times, and he is actually smiling it off. Nasty head buts too.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 weeks ago

Archie Moore, the heavy weight with the most knock outs. Joe Louis would not fight him. So many other fighters. Guys that were way better than Tyson and Holyfield, do a little research, this list needs work.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 weeks ago

Moore was crushed by Marciano when he was 39 years old, he fought Patterson when he 40. We are talking about when he was younger, the great Joe Louis would not give him a fight! I was wrong about, Moore being the Heavy Weight with the most knock outs, but he does have the most knock outs. I concede, but you still are not recognizing what I said about Foreman. He was over 46 when he fought Holyfield. Holyfield and Tyson might be in my top 25. Let's just start with your number one. Muhamed Ali, we are very close to agreeing there. Joe Louis, yes, but Holyfield? Let me look at his record again. I am just going off memory, Moore beat him, he is not in your top 30 is he? Lennox Lewis beat him, but Lennox Lewis was a good boxer....let me look, he regained his title four times, but he also lost it, I think Razor Rudduck beat him, and he was good but not great. I think Holyfield is up there, up the greats, but he isn't in a well rounded top ten. He didn't decisively beat the others of his time. Not like the two guys you have front of him, so it is not logical ti give him the same credit.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 weeks ago

My friend, it just isnt logical. I am not saying Ali, and Joe Louis are my one and two, but I can see your point. There was a good period where those two guys were a head over the competition. Holyfield never had it like that. He would get the belt, and lose it, get it back and lose it. That alone is a perfectly good argument. Sure he regained the title 4 times, but that is because he lost it 3 times. Joe Louis did not lose his title for 10 years! Ali was untouchable, before his license was stripped, you could not put a glove on him. To say Holyfield belongs in that class makes no sense. Joe Louis has the most title defenses in history, these guys did not lose untill they were physically slower! Mike Tyson gets to use the, "his focus was not there excuse," but he was not an old man like these guys were when people started to catch them. I love Holyfield, but give my some more information. I just don't see it.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 weeks ago

Riddick Bowe was who I was thinking of, my fault. Ali and Louis lost to other guys in your own top 10. Holyfield lost to guys that probably don't make your list. I will give Holyfield the credit for beating Tyson twice, and he was head butting, but still, he deserves to be up there because of that. Like I said I like Holyfield, I just understand how you can put him right next to Ali. He went the distance with a 43 years old Holmes and a 46 year old Foreman! Both obviosly fatter and slower versions of there former selves. Does that sway you at all! To me that means that those guys would have potentially eaten his lunch 15 to 25 years before when they were on top. Does that mean anything?, as far, as greatness goes. Foreman beat Moorer, Holy has 10 losses, and some of the guys you named are not Hall of Famers. Ray Mercer was good, but he is not a great.

You still have not made the connection to how belongs on the same plane, or close to the same plane as Ali and Louis.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 12 days ago

You know what I have 3 rounds and a knock down. A 46 year old Foreman goes the distance with your #3 and you don't have any response to what a 24 year old Foreman might have done. You even said Holmes would beat Holyfield and yet you have him behind on your list. What sense does that make. I will admit that I should have a few points taken away for the 3rd grade comment, and the kissing the picture comment, but I am still way ahead. It you don't want to come out for round 4 then I will understand. But if you refuse to acknowledge one of my arguments, before you come up with a new one, then round 4 will belong to me. Watch the Ali vs Clevland Williams fight. Clevland can't even touch Ali. You Holyfield who leads with his head right behind him in the rankings. Actually I will give you round one, but I have the next two for sure, because you got me on the Archie Moore, but that was a close round. You are not going to be able to convince me that a young Holyfield can beat anyone else on your list in their prime. (Tyson avoided Holyfield for awhile also) So I will give you that Holy is great, but not a #3. You might be able to put him in front of Tyson, but even with his 2 victories is that cut and dry.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 12 days ago

( I am standing in a nuetral corner)

let the counting begin....

10, 9, 8

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 10 days ago

I just watched most of Holyfield vs Dokes, now you have given me some good information to move Holyfield further up my list.

This is what makes Holyfield a great...

He has great heart, humble, and a great demeanor about him, and this has always been important to me. Conditioning and Stamina is top notch, and that I will put up there with anyone.

I also want to note that he did not fight Tyson untill 1996, so they never faced each other during what could have been prime years for both of them. I think it can even be argued that Holyfield got better with age, and he think he got stronger. I have heard that Tyson did not really give him the opportunity for a fight, and we both know Tyson went to prison.

But....I have several arguments of why Foreman and Holmes are better fighters.

Tools....Speed and Power.

Holmes, had speed comparable to Ali, and he fought the same way. Please note that he went the distance with Foreman. Now I never watched the Toney vs Holyfield fight, and Toney is kind of impressive in a way. But, before even watching the fight, I will automatically give Holyfield the same treatment that I am giving Foreman and Holmes. That being, that Holyfield was in his 40's when he fought Toney so it is not fair to use that fight to evaluate him. So as far as speed is concerned, and that includes going through a fight with out getting hit, Evander is not completely well rounded and great in that category. Dokes, had no legs and was out of gas by round 5. Yes he good, but I beleive that the speed of Ali, and Holmes would have overwhelmed a guy like Dokes. These guys went through fights with out getting hit. Dokes loaded up for every punch, while he was loading up, Ali and Holmes would have been able to hit him several times, as Evander did, but the difference is, Holmes and Ali would have been out of the way by the time Dokes through his punch.

Now as far as Power is concerned. Have you ever seen Foreman hit the heavy bag. Tyson had great power, but he did not have Foreman power. Tyson's power is different than Foreman. We can talk about that later. But, Foreman had power that was steady and constant, where as Tyson who had great power had to rely on great technique to use it. Foreman could stand right in front of you, in your face and basically move you around the ring. Tyson moved people around the ring because they were afraid of getting hit, which is a great thing. But Foreman litterally moved people around the ring. He would cut off the ring, and push his opponent in the corner. Foreman hitting the heavy bag is an amazing sight. Neither Dokes nor Holyfield come close in that department. Have you seen a young Foreman hitting the heavy bag?

I think a young Foreman would have cut off the ring for Holyfield, just like he did with Kenny Norton.

To me, Kenny Norton is more comparible to Holyfield, much more so than to Ali, and Joe Lewis.

There are guys on your list that obliterated everyone out there. Holyfield did not obliterate his competition. I am not saying knock out. Either going through the whole fight and not getting touched, for one, or clearly over powering the guy. Holyfield did niether of those.

Toney had a great chin, but he would have not been able to put on the same show with a young Ali and a young Foreman.

How many Foreman fights have you seen?

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 10 days ago

I will look that up.....I have seen many of Foreman's fights, it has been a while. It was actually Jimmy Young that Foreman lost to, not Jimmy Ellis. Now Young also gave an older fatter Ali problems, a fight that went all 15 rounds. Now we both know that Ali used the Rope a Dope on Forman, and that right there would have been a complete learning experience for Foreman, he was knocked out, but it came from Ali being clever. He was not necesarily beating him up, what I call beating up...can be seen in in a fight like the Floyd Mayweather vs Arturo Gotti. Floyd Mayweather kicked his ass, plain and simple, from start to finish. Ali outsmarted Foreman, and defended himself and even took some big shots, which others were not able to take. So I am not discrediting Ali what so ever, but what I am doing is giving Foreman the benifit of never having faced an Ali before. That fight would have made Foreman better, and his wins as older fighter demonstrated this experience.

We both have selected great fighters that have lost, at times.

Do you see where I am coming from when I compare Holyfield to Ken Norton? Norton beat some great fighters, but you can give the greats he beat some pretty good excuses. If we were goinig solely on who beat the best fighters, and never lost to lesser opponents then we would both have to agree on Joe Frazier moving up the list. I actually met Joe Frazier, and I will tell you what he said that made me change my mind about Foreman, but the note that the only person that Frazier was not able to beat was Foreman. Everyone he lost to he beat. Frazier never fought any person that he was not able to beat with the exception of Foreman.

We rate Frazier kind of the same, but maybe for different reasons. I put him where I put him because when he did win he did not always win overwhelmingly (Oscar Bonavena or George Chuvalo, both guys that were overwhelmed by Ali's speed and Foreman's power) Sure victory is a victory, but Foreman clearly overwhelmed over 50 of his opponents. I will get back with you on Larry Holmes (who has one of the best jabs ever) Holyfield's victory over Nokes is okay, and he got the knock out, but he also got Rocked several times. (and he was able to bounc back, but that does not make him great) The point is he never overwhelmed anyone, and convince anyone that he was in a league all his own.) I personally don't like Floyd, but in my opinion he has fights that convincingly show that he is in another league. Ali would make people look like fools (Chuvalo, Bonavena, and Williams, all fights were they could not lay hand on him, litterally)

Floyd Mayweather vs Gotti is a perfect example of what I am talking about. He made Gotti look like a club fighter. Holy beat Dokes, but did not make him look like a club fighter.

At this point I will also say that a younger fresher Holyfield might have beaten a crafty James Toney. But I will not be convinced that he could have beaten a young Foreman. (Kenny Norton fight, Norton was a # 1 contendor, Dokes a #8 at the time.)

I am not going to say anything about Holmes untill I watch the Witherspoon fight.

Peace

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 10 days ago

Also note that Ali did not give Foreman a second chance. Ali gave everyone a second chance....So you have to take note of that. Foreman could not get another fight with Ali.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 9 days ago

Just look at the wikipedia...all three of those boxers are hall of famers, and not to mention Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, and Jerry Quary. So Frazier has five hall famers to his credit, and lost to the same two people twice. Micheal Dokes was 30 in that fight, a boxer peaks at 28, and that is not the case for everyone. Dokes had no legs in that fight. I personally beleive that the hardes fight Holyfield could have had was Lennox Lewis. I will give him credit for taking him to a draw, but as far as records are concerned, Frazier's is very impressive.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 8 days ago

I was looking at the World BHoF. They were both worthy challengers. Oscar Bonavena beat Chuvalo. Chuvalo is probably in the IBhallofFame, so he is a somebody. I also watched the Ali fight, and Ali had more trouble with Bonavena than Chuvalo. I am going to check out your pound for pound.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 8 days ago

Anyone can be a boxing brain on the internet, the information is right at our fingertips. The expertise is how you apply that information. I am not all trying to be difficult.

I came to you with some good info. Holyfield beat an old Foreman, and an old Holmes, both fights went the distance. I don't understand how you can rank Holyfield ahead of Foreman. I don't see it, and Bert Sugar wouldn't see it either. I am going to look up his top 10 heavy weights. The only question that you have brought forth to me, is that Holmes didn't face anyone. I am going to look at his record a little closer. Placing Holyfield in the middle of five guys that were untouchable does not make any sense. Holyfield was never untouchable as a heavyweight. He was good, and great, but not in a top 3. You have him ahead of Jack Johnson! There is footage of him fighting, you can see he is toying with his opponent. Holyfield is great, but never great enough to toy with anyone.

If you are the boxing brain, then how do you account for age?

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 8 days ago

I will use your same argument against you.

There were fighters that caused a frenzy, and drew people to their TVs. ( radios or newspapers)

Jack Johnson, Ali, Tyson, Foreman, Louis, Dempsey, Tuney, Marciano, and even Holmes.

Holyfield never caused that kind of Frenzy. Those people caused that kind of Frenzy because the public veiwed them to be unbeatable.

Holyfield was a great fighter, but the public never frenzied over him, and that was because he never aura of invincibility. The great greats had that. That is why they are always at the tops of lists. To just throw Holyfield in that crowd is a discredit to many other great fighters, like Kenny Norton, Floyd Patterson, and a crowd of others. Especially when he lost 10 times, to names that will fade into obsurity. If Ali lost to someone, they are automatically famous, and that goes for everyone almost everyone else on that list.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 7 days ago

Slow and Fat Foreman....the famous round 7...Evander Holyfield vs George Foreman...Foreman is obviosly a slower Fatter version of himself...You can hints of his youth, as he is still able to push Holyfield at times, the power that once was is still there, but the endurance is gone...the boxing brain can't see this, can't imagine how a young foreman would have destroyed a peaking Holyfield..and Holyfield was at his peak in that fight. My freind you list is nothing brainy....if you can't see that Foreman doesn't have the same bounce, the same quickness in closing off the ring....if that isn't obvious to you....then you need help....a young Foreman would have wiped his ass with a Tyson and a Holyfield..

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 7 days ago

Unbeleiveable...I like you buddy, you seem like a good guy....but what a dicredit to George. Evander is unloading on him in that famous round 7, and you don't think a 24 year old version of Foreman was quicker. A young George also had great defense.. He never got hit...you know just facts...you don't know fighting...you can't see the difference? George is 46 not half of what he was...compare the diference in his legs..compare the difference in how he throws a punch, read about it...he had to compensate for his slower reflexes.....what shallow observation....Evander had heart....woopty dee doo....we are talking about the great sport of boxing...and we are talking about who were the greats.....if you are going to regurgitate that HBO, paid per view ticket selling shit then you won't ever be able to give a good analysis....Poor Evander never in his life had the tools to beat a young Foreman...and it is ridiculous to even suggest it...when it is in front of everyone's face and so obvious....

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 7 days ago

I know boxing, and a 46 year old Foreman went the distance with Holyfield.....So there is nothing special about Holyfield..Holyfield gives two, takes two, gives two, takes two....His record is great, but there were alot of fighters that Holyfield Stamina, conditioning is not a new invention...Kenny Norton was a highly conditioned better athlete....That Era had better athletes in the sport of boxing period, the experts themselves site the bigger payout in the other sports as a reason for this....He lost to James Toney, Do you know why? Because James Toney is a boxer. Holyfield goes in head first. Stamina and Chin are great attributes, but if that is your criteria, then Jack Johnson needs to be ahead of Holyfield.

You dont think Foreman was a tougher fight than Michael Dokes? When did Dokes ever hit Holyfield the way he did in round 7? That was round 7, the same round you said he starts to fade. Are you going off, the rope a dope? Can you back up your statements. So far you have taken me to one fight, to support this high ranking you are giving Holyfield. You asked me to look at the Dokes fight. Dokes was 30 years old, not the fighther he had been, ranked 6th in the world, and had no legs after five rounds. What is so great about that? How does Holyfield get up their with Lewis and Ali? You have not supported this ranking what so ever?

He went to town on a 46 year old with everything he had, and could not put him away. He was not going through the fight with out gettin hit either. Stamina and a great chin are the only things you are convincing me of, and that does not make him great. Now you want to respond with "if you knew boxing!" Holyfield isn't even a good boxer. Holmes was a good boxer.

Give me something else to look at, right now I will concede that his chin and stamina are top notch, but there have been other fighters that have had that. Foreman's chin, and foreman has a better record to go along with it.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 7 days ago

I just saw the comment about what the "the list is about what the boxer accomplished, not who bet who." When the experts put together a list, a strong part of it is how one boxer stacks up against another. I will look at the Ring Magazine, I am finding that hard to beleive. I think boxinig was better in the 70's and before. I am not going to say that Holmes would have schooled Foreman. I don't think you realize how much more stronger he was than the the rest of the field. Foreman is pretty high on my list, as you can probably tell.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 7 days ago

Hold on, I was just about to give you the night off..

Holyfield vs Foreman round 7. You don't read every issue of Ring Magazine to tell you what to think. Foreman is getting rocked and taking everything Holyfield can dish. But yet Foreman still presses forward, as times he is pushing Holyfield around the ring. Now Holyfield clearly one the fight, and not denying that. I am asking you to put down the copy fo Ring Magazine and see if my opinion (and we both have opinions) has any merit.

It is a matter of how one fighther stacks against another. Accomplishment don't always mean shit. Jack Johnson never fought another african after he became champ, so what that matters. The argument is who is the better fighter in their prime. The fight stats were better for Holyfield, but Foreman was almost just as busy. A younger Foreman would have thrown more punches. A younger Foreman was also a great finisher. To just throw out, well Foreman would fade after round 7, is as if you only know the one fight were he famously lost in round 7. He knocked out Lyle in round 10. He also didn't lose again until he was 46. So he lost two or three times out of 50 fights and then retired.....you are just making stuff up...you said...he would fade after round 7....He never lost when he younger..

He was 45 - 2 when he retired for 10 years!!!!!...How do you fade after round 7 if you are 45 and 2? What kind of sense does that make?

You just want Holyfield up there becase Ring Magazine sold you some BS.

Your last response was ...."he would fade after round 7"

Look at his record....you don't fade if you are 45 and 2 with 39 knock outs!!! The six other wins were UDs....

Ring Magazine is trying to see you something. I am showing you the facts and you keep changing the topic....fade after round 7 is what you said!!!but it is not a fact...

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 6 days ago

Jason, my good freind. Holy was 29 years old, and George was 46! You seem to be forgetting that.

Jimmy Young was Foreman's only loss, after Ali. Then he went into retirement for ten years. Where does fading enter the discussion if you beat everyone but two people? Why on earth would that matter?

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 6 days ago

Don't even go there with the facts....your facts are completely biased. My goal is to put together a good list. He was 46 when fought Moorer. There is a big difference between 46 and 42, but there is a HHHHUUUUUGGGGEEE difference between 29 and 42. You will notice in a few years.

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 days ago

well?

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 2 days ago

support your arguments. I am wanting to learn about this fading you are talking about. The Ron Lyle Fight, is that what you are referring to? He didn't have many that went past three rounds. I also find it interesting that you stated that when he was younger, that he had this problem. Well maybe becuase he trained to differently when he was older to make up for what he lacked in other areas. A boxing brain should not run from a good argument, he should counter with something. I am sorry that I have desimated everything you have thrown toward me, but what do you want me to do? Agree that Holyfield accomplished more than Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson toyed with opponents, and that means most of them. Holyfield beat a few guys, and when it came to the upper levels, he lost some and won some. No comparison. Johnson is also probably the most blessed athletically....make a case! Evander has stamina and heart is not a case. They all had that...

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 25 hours ago

you have no case what so ever...Oscar Bonavena and Ron Lyle were great fighters. You are just hanging on to nothing. Fading? He fought close to 80 fights and went over 7 rounds maybe 10 times. Holyfeild faded against Toney, that is the truth. That is fading. Foreman almost knocked Holyfield out (who is not easy to knock out), so imagine what he would have done at 24. You have no case.....my 5 arguments destroyed your "fading" argument. Now, let's move on to Jack Johnson....he reigned for 7 years..and with the fresh information that you have given me, I can not put him in front of Foreman. Johnson was a phenomen, the only one ever, there isn't anything like him, and their may never be again....how can you put Holy infront of such a great as him...tell me this argument...I am dying to hear it...I bet it has no substance

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 23 hours ago

You read a few articles on the internet and think your an expert...

scott12 Level 1 Commenter 13 hours ago

no shit...that goes to show how stacked that era was...this is why you are not an expert...because of thoughtless comments like that....Ron Lyle is not a great, but he was a worthy challenger....your analysis provides no depth...